Mind If We Talk? Season 2: Embracing Queer Identity & Healing from Bullying

Welcome to Episode 7 of Mind If We Talk? Season 2

Mind If We Talk? is an original mental health podcast created by BetterHelp and Acast Creative Studios that opens up real conversations about life’s challenging moments, and how therapy can help us navigate them. Over the course of 10 episodes, Season 2 brings two people together to share different perspectives on experiences that are deeply felt, yet rarely discussed. Through guided conversation, guests reflect on what they wish others understood about their inner world and what it means to truly listen and be seen. Each episode is hosted by Dr. Sreela Roy-Greene, a licensed BetterHelp therapist, who gently guides the conversation and offers therapeutic insight along the way.

Episode 7: Embracing Queer Identity & Healing from Bullying

What happens when children grow up hiding who they really are? In this episode, host Sreela Roy-Greene sits down with trailblazing comedian Margaret Cho and her younger comedian friend, Dylan Adler. Together, they reflect on their distinct journeys with queer identity, childhood bullying, and finding acceptance as adults. Plus, they reflect on a key mechanism of using humor to transform pain and shame. Later, Sreela is joined by organizer, author, and activist Hope Giselle. Hope breaks down the profound psychological impact of positive representation, how bullying shapes the nervous system, and how to start healing from the things we were taught to never talk about.

Note: This episode contains mentions of sexual assault and suicide. Please take care and be mindful of who is listening with you.

What wisdom would you share with your younger self?

SREELA:

I want to start with you, Margaret. If you could go back and talk to your past self, what wisdom would you impart on that younger version of yourself?

MARGARET:

I think it's always -- everything's gonna be okay. I would always be very worried about what the future would bring. I grew up in San Francisco -- always worried about things. And there were some awful things that happened for sure. One of my very first traumas was Harvey Milk's assassination in 1978. The tragedy of that, the needless tragedy of that -- so shocking because he was such an important figure in my childhood. And then the absolute devastation of AIDS. That completely rocked the entire community that I was in. It destroyed my family's business. The loss of life and culture and people, just the friends that we loved.

There were valid reasons to worry -- multiple instances of really violent homophobia happening around us in the seventies and eighties in San Francisco. The city establishment didn't really care about the community back then. But now coming through it, I realize I didn't have to worry so much. I didn't have to be so scared, because we are resilient as a community. We are endlessly resourceful and incredibly hopeful, and we're able to rise. And now we're fighting a new enemy, of course, with transphobia -- something that I'm really putting all my energy against. But I have learned to stop obsessively worrying the way that I used to. And that's been a help.

SREELA:

I'm so glad you shared that because it's one of those topics that's almost in the periphery -- a vague awareness of -- but we don't actually talk about it and it becomes a form of disenfranchised grief. Dylan, was there a moment in particular where you realized that you needed someone -- specifically Margaret -- in your life?

DYLAN:

I also grew up in the Bay. And as Margaret was saying -- you think of it sometimes as like, oh my gosh, it must be a bastion of everyone being blah, blah, blah. For some reason the school I went to was very homophobic and transphobic. I kind of relied on a small group of theater kids and friends. But also what helped me was seeing people like Margaret and hearing her comedy -- just having an Asian role model like that was so awesome. Us Asian American comedians are very lucky to have Margaret.

Coming to terms with identity

SREELA:

I wanted to go back to growing up -- the conflicting messages we often get from our community, from our own cultural upbringing, and what is expected of us. Margaret, how did that play a role for you in coming to terms with your own sense of self?

MARGARET:

I grew up around so much gay culture that it made me realize that gay was normal -- and that to be straight was off. Heterosexuality was very subversive and very odd and strange. And why would you do that? Queerness was the norm. We were going to go see John Waters movies and John Waters film festivals. That was like our art. Everything outsider became insider.

My parents are really, really amazing -- because that's not their culture at all. They came from very Christian immigrant backgrounds. My father came to America and felt invisible until he went to the gay neighborhoods. And then he was seen. Everybody would look at him. He was so enamored by all the attention that he bought a bookstore because he always loved literature -- he always wanted a place where they would have poetry readings and stuff like that. And that's what it became. All of the contradictions that I come from.

SREELA:

It speaks to: we seek acceptance where we can find it. And it's not always in the places you expect it. Dylan, how did you grow to nourish your sense of self-acceptance?

DYLAN:

I'm gay and have an identical gay twin brother. We were both kind of closeted and coming to terms with our identity in middle school and high school. He was the first to come out. When it comes to the comedy world, I had Margaret Cho in my phone -- a lot of amazing queers that I looked up to. When I started, I was going to comedy clubs and open mics and I wouldn't see very many Asian queers or people that had my same kind of lived experience. But I think five years in was where I really found my group of queers. When it comes to community, it sometimes takes a little bit -- but you will find your people.

“When it comes to community, it sometimes takes a little bit -- but you will find your people.” -- Dylan

Experiencing bullying -- and what it really does

SREELA:

I want to pivot a little bit and talk about the opposite of acceptance -- feeling marginalized, feeling bullied -- because that's the part where people need the most help. Have there been moments where those really awful life experiences come up for you?

MARGARET:

I was bullied a lot as a child. I thought children were really terrifying. I felt really alternately bullied and then abandoned. And then later, as I started doing standup really early -- I got some success really quickly. And these kids who would bully me would come to shows and pay VIP prices to get a meet and greet and wanna take pictures. And I'd say: I don't remember you and I don't know who you are. You really don't want me to remember you writing graffiti about me on the walls of the school.

I always want to encourage kids who are being bullied -- it's gonna get so much better. Kids who bully are miserable kids. And they grow up to be miserable adults. And then they look at you -- the things that they bullied you for make you shine as an adult and they see it. It gets better. It gets so much better. Just hang on.

DYLAN:

The bully sees what makes you shine, what makes you special. You're a spark. And they wanna squash it down. I definitely experienced that in high school. It was actually when the It Gets Better campaign happened. I didn't even admit to myself I was gay, but I would watch those YouTube videos -- and I would watch videos of kids in high school being like, I just took my boyfriend to prom. And I'm like, my God, you're in Syracuse, New York and I'm in San Francisco. Those videos planted a seed of hope. Those were very important messages for young kids.

“It gets so much better. The things they bullied you for make you shine as an adult.” -- Margaret

Using pain to find the light

SREELA:

In comedy and in life, we have to look at painful experiences sometimes, and that helps inform our work. How have you each used your pain to help heal or inform how you approach your fields?

MARGARET:

Comedy comes out of a need for hope. All comedy, all humor stems from a need to rise above a situation and look for the hopeful solution. That's what humor is -- how do we keep on able to live well? We can look at something hopeful and laugh about it, and then we have a renewed sense of possibility. Think about what laughter is -- it's an unexpected intake of breath. It's almost yoga. You didn't know you were gonna breathe in, but somebody said something and you breathed in because it was so shocking or surprising or funny. You breathed in and that ensures life for you for the next few seconds and injects you with this oxygen, this hope, this lift that was not planned for. The impetus is always going toward a light.

DYLAN:

When you talk about things that held previous shame, they just really help move you through that. It is exactly moving you to the next breath. I don't think reaching out for help and finding humor are actually separate. Those things can inform each other and help each other.

“Comedy comes out of a need for hope. The impetus is always going toward a light.” -- Margaret

Looking for the helpers

SREELA:

What would your advice be to individuals who are still trying to come to terms with who they are?

MARGARET:

Look for the helpers. Look for people that are out there to help. I just saw this beautiful thing on social media -- a hairdresser having a workshop at his salon for trans women, showing them how to use flat irons and curling irons. What a beautiful thing -- to just welcome people in with no shame around it. I've definitely done that for trans women. I'm not a makeup artist, but I've shared what I know. When you're so early in your transition, you don't know who to ask, you don't know what to do -- and I was able to make it really fun. We were able to share those first initial exciting moments of girlhood together. Try to find people who are excited to help.

DYLAN:

Go where it feels warm. Go where it feels good. That's how I felt when I was in high school listening to Margaret's comedy.

What happens when you don't see yourself reflected in the world

SREELA:

Hearing Margaret and Dylan talk about their bond is such a beautiful reminder of how vital mentorship and community are. Now, to help unpack what happens psychologically when young people don't see themselves reflected -- and what it takes to heal -- I'm sitting down with activist and author Hope Giselle.

SREELA:

What do you think happens to an individual on a psychological level -- especially a young person -- when they don't see themselves positively reflected in the world around them?

HOPE:

You have one of two things that can happen. There are folks like me who will do their best to become those models of the things that we didn't see, because we recognize that that is a supply and demand. But then there's also the unfortunate side where you have folks who don't see themselves represented, and so they fall into the status quo and the stereotypes of what the media tells them that they have to be -- which oftentimes, especially when you add on the layers of intersection that go along with being a Black or brown person, doesn't leave you a lot of options. There are a lot of unsavory characters that tend to prey on that. And there are folks who have become jaded, and that's become their reality. I wish that more people chose that first one -- to become the thing that they don't see -- rather than lean into the stereotype.

SREELA:

What are your thoughts on how that push and pull impacts identity formation, or sense of self-worth?

HOPE:

The way that society will have you form is that we all have this traditional experience -- or what's supposed to be a traditional experience -- as teenagers and youth. During that time period, we are dating and exploring, and our parents are oftentimes encouraging that, if it's a heteronormative experience. What happens is that oftentimes that normal experience isn't passed on to the queer child. There's already a layer of development that kids fall short on just because of who they are. And then on top of that, you don't even have an outlet to go and say, well, I was able to watch this show where this character was at least embodying what a healthy version of that looks like.

I remember watching Degrassi for the first time when I was about 16 and seeing the character Marco have a DL boyfriend. He's dating this guy that was on the football team and nobody knew -- but then they found out and they were still able to have this beautiful couple in a relationship. I got to see a character on TV that was a young boy who did get the star of the football team, and everybody at school was happy with it. Even if that wasn't something I foresaw being my reality, I at least saw a world and a universe where it existed. And that gave me hope.

When we think about what it means to not have both the lived experience and not see that representation -- if it's not a possibility, and you're not seeing those possibility models lived out in other people, it becomes a thing that almost feels impossible. We start to believe that we're unworthy of love, unworthy of a regular teenage experience. And those are things that we're trying to combat by affirming folks and affirming our youth specifically.

“Become the thing that you don't see, rather than lean into the stereotype.” -- Hope

Creating space where there was none

SREELA:

You founded Alabama State's first group for LGBTQ+ students. Tell me a little bit about what that experience was like for you.

HOPE:

I got so much hell for that. When I went to fill out the paperwork, one of the things they used to deter me was to say that the first group didn't last because football players came to the first ever meeting and threw pizza at the group. It was almost as if I were being warned -- and warned that I wouldn't be protected if this were to happen again. Essentially: you can start the club at your own risk, but this is what happened last time, and we're not sure how helpful we're gonna be this time either.

I couldn't help but think about the fact that I was creating something that was necessary for the kids on campus -- necessary for me on campus. The idea of belonging in even a small space was what moved me. And it was beautiful to watch it continue to flourish even after I graduated, and to see what it became -- their first lavender graduation, and hearing from some of the graduates over the years. I became the change that I wanted to see.

How bullying shapes the nervous system

SREELA:

How do you feel bullying impacts adolescents -- how it shapes their nervous system? What kind of significant impact can bullying have, especially on a forming brain?

HOPE:

Bullying can put you in a position where you're always on guard. I think a lot of folks look at adult trans people and think that we're always just aggressive and always just mean. And I ask you to remember that the trans adult you're talking to was once that trans kid that got called every name in the book. Bullying is not just something that stops because you turn 16 and your acne clears up and you get a couple of curves or a couple of muscles and now everything is great. No -- you're gonna always remember when you were the brace-face kid. You're gonna always remember when you had a little bit of extra weight on you. Because for four or five years of your life, every single day was that, because someone chose to make your life a living hell for it. And if you haven't gotten over it, imagine a kid who couldn't hide their queerness and then came to know their transness. They've been going through this since they were five, and now they're 35.

SREELA:

It lingers. It stays with us. It's like a scar -- a wound heals, but it never goes away. It stays with you for the rest of your life.

“Bullying is not just something that stops. You're gonna always remember when you were that kid.” -- Hope

Why authenticity gets punished -- and how to reclaim it

SREELA:

Why do you think authenticity and individuality are things that get looked down upon?

HOPE:

Because everybody is so comfortable in not having to face judgment or critique that being different is something to be looked down on -- because it's like, if I've decided to be mundane, you cannot have more fun with your autonomy than I am having with mine. I think that some folks' jealousy comes out in the form of bigotry, comes out in the form of bullying. A lot of it is just the lack of ability to understand that your freedom is your own to claim.

SREELA:

And it's very hard to get to that place where you finally become -- I don't want to say fearless, but there is a degree of fearlessness that has to happen -- to say: no, this is who I am. This is part of who I am. And there's so much more to me. We aren't one facet. We are multifaceted as human beings. Do you think there is something schools or parents can be doing differently or better?

HOPE:

There's so many things going on with our schools right now that putting teachers in even more uncompromising positions just doesn't seem fair. These are folks that I believe got into the business because they wanted to help shape our minds. But things have become so political that a person who is just trying to help can be fired for a misunderstanding. I want to prioritize the safety and wellbeing of the people who are still shaping these minds.

We do a disservice to our kids by not letting them know that there are two worlds they have to navigate simultaneously -- the world I've created to keep you safe, and the world I've put you into because you need it for basic survival. I don't ever want you to be confused that they're the same, because they're not.

SREELA:

Find your safe people. Find your safe spaces. Don't not be you. And especially for parents who are navigating this with their own children -- ask questions, find allies, get to know people within that community so that you can speak to your children and relate. Read about it. You can at least say: I have your back. I just don't know enough about it yet. Just being that vulnerable as a parent is an extremely important move. Because in that moment your child is seeing that vulnerability and being able to say, at least my parent has my back. And your child can be your teacher.

How creativity becomes healing

SREELA:

What are your thoughts on how creativity can help people manage shame and trauma, and reach a place of healing?

HOPE:

There is nothing more beautiful than creative juices flowing. When I was in elementary school, I actually brought the concept of a talent show to my school. The day of the show, I didn't have anything to wear -- I was performing to Destiny's Child's "Survivor" -- and I had a very amazing drama teacher, Ms. Michelle Reu, who gave me a Tinkerbell costume. And I got up there and I performed "Survivor" by myself, as a little Black boy. The energy that I got from most of the people in the audience was so exhilarating, and it reminded me that that's how I wanted to feel for the rest of my life.

SREELA:

Are there any other moments of healing you can share?

HOPE:

I was the first Black trans woman to speak at the March on Washington -- the 60th anniversary year. I remember having all of this nostalgia and feeling like there was this weight on my shoulders, because Bayard Rustin helped organize one of the largest civil rights actions ever and was told that he could not speak because he was a homosexual. And I just felt like, as a Black trans woman and as the first one to do this, I was speaking for him. I was speaking for every Black person that didn't make it because they got bullied the day before. That's definitely a moment I'll never forget.

“I became the change that I wanted to see.” -- Hope

Listener questions

SREELA:

Why do I still seek validation from people who remind me of those who rejected me?

HOPE:

Because there's a need to fill that hole. Just because that person no longer serves you, it doesn't mean that the energy you sought from them is not something that would still heal you. All of the things that you are seeking in the people that are being toxic to you -- it's often because we believe that in order to feel this feeling, it has to also come with the disrespect. It has to come with the devolvement of who I am as a human being. And it doesn't. We just attached it to this person who behaves that way. But what happens when you are reminded that this feeling can also come with affirmation, with love, with care, with respect? That changes and shifts the narrative.

SREELA:

One thing I'll often tell my clients: ask yourself why this feels so familiar. And that should raise the red flag -- not yellow, not orange -- that if this is feeling too familiar and not in a good way, I probably should go in the other direction.

SREELA:

How do you start healing from something you were taught to never talk about?

HOPE:

First and foremost, you have to be able to talk about it with yourself. A lot of people want to run straight to their therapist, but if you haven't even found the words to say to yourself what's happening, you are not gonna be able to convey that to someone else. You're gonna spend months in therapy talking about everything except the topic you're trying to get through. Sit with yourself and meditate on it, meditate through it. Start with one word. Even if that word is "I." If the whole sentence is "I was sexually assaulted at that party," start with "I" and say it every morning until you can get through that sentence. Oftentimes the first step is being able to admit to yourself that something happened to you -- so that someone else can help you work through the why, the what, the what next.

CREDITS:

SREELA:

I want to give a big thank you to BetterHelp for their passion for this project, and for giving us a platform to champion the well-being in all of us. Mind If We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp, and hosted by me, Sreela Roy-Greene. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and share the episode with your friends! Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life. And remember, your happiness matters.

Mind If We Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.

If you or someone you know is in crisis, the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is available 24/7 — call or text 988. The Trevor Project offers crisis support specifically for LGBTQ+ youth at 1-866-488-7386 or text START to 678-678.