Mind If We Talk? Season 2: How Hard It Is to Break the Toxic Relationship Cycle

Welcome to Episode 3 of Mind If We Talk? Season 2

Mind If We Talk? is an original mental health podcast created by BetterHelp and Acast Creative Studios that opens up real conversations about life’s challenging moments, and how therapy can help us navigate them. Over the course of 10 episodes, Season 2 brings two people together to share different perspectives on experiences that are deeply felt, yet rarely discussed. Through guided conversation, guests reflect on what they wish others understood about their inner world and what it means to truly listen and be seen. Each episode is hosted by Dr. Sreela Roy-Greene, a licensed BetterHelp therapist, who gently guides the conversation and offers therapeutic insight along the way.

Episode 3: I Wish You Knew… Why Dating Is So Hard Today

Having a healthy romantic relationship is easier said than done. From mixed signals to playing games, ghosting to co-dependence, many of us feel lost at sea when it comes to dating and relationships. Especially for those of us who were raised with toxic relationship models, it can be difficult to identify and trust the signs of a healthy partnership.

In this episode, host and licensed mental health counselor Sreela Roy-Greene sits down with writer and musician Holly Solem and Carré Kwong Callaway to navigate the tricky world of romantic relationships. Throughout their 20s, both friends found themselves in toxic relationships, before they each realized what was motivating their choices. Together with Sreela, they discuss how to recognize toxic cycles, break old behaviors, and the importance of learning to love yourself.

Then, in the second half of the episode, Sreela is joined by licensed therapist David Yadush from BetterHelp. Together, they explore the difference between healthy vs. familiar behaviors, taking time to discover your own preferences, and learning to identify red—and green!—flags in relationships.

If you’ve ever felt like you were the problem and just can’t seem to find your person, this episode is for you.

What familiar can feel like

CARRÉ:

It’s not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently. Because I think your nervous system, it’s just what’s familiar. And gravitating towards that kind of chaos and intensity — it’s really intoxicating.

SREELA:

Welcome back to ‘Mind If We Talk?’, where you get to be a fly on the wall for mini therapy sessions, and learn some mental health tips in the process.

I’m Sreela Roy Greene, a licensed mental health counselor with over 19 years of experience, and your host for Season Two.

This season is all about bringing people together who see the world a little differently… and who want to understand one another better.

In each episode, I sit down with two people who’ve agreed to have a real, vulnerable conversation. Together, we explore the thorny emotions and topics they may have turned away from in the past. After each mini therapy session, I’ll sit down with an expert to break down what we heard and how you might apply it to your own life.

Today, we are going to unpack one of life’s most common challenges: dating.

The relationship models we were given as children can play a big role here. We are more likely to be attracted to what is familiar — and that may or may not be healthy. Ultimately, we must look within ourselves and see where our behaviors might limit the love we want before we find our ideal partner.

“We can’t truly accept or give love if we don’t have it for ourselves first.”

Today, I sat down with two friends who have had very different experiences with love and dating.

Holly Solem is a musician, model, and writer. She is joined by her friend, Carré Kwong Callaway, who is also a musician. Holly reports a history of attracting toxic relationships, which were explosive and exciting… but tended to burn out quickly. Carré’s behavior was different but not necessarily healthier — she tended to jump into long-term relationships rather fast, and even found herself in a volatile marriage that ended in a messy divorce.

Both women eventually realized they needed to take a break from relationships and find ways to break their cycles. They took stock of their behavioral patterns and started to recognize what unhealthy traits they were continuously attracted to — in addition to learning what behaviors they needed to shift from within.

Later in this episode, I’ll sit down with licensed therapist David Yadush from BetterHelp to explore breaking toxic cycles, how to take time for yourself, and trusting when you have found someone who makes you feel at peace.

Let’s get to talking.

A friendship that started on the wrong foot

SREELA:

You’ve both been friends for a very long time. How and when did you meet, and what stage of life were you in?

HOLLY:

I’m like, friends or enemies? We did start out on the wrong foot. Carré was in her teens, I was in my early twenties — that was quite a while ago because I’m now 43 years old. I went over to her boyfriend’s house. He was a music producer, songwriter. I went to work with him on a song and we hooked up.

CARRÉ:

So, geez. My boyfriend cheated on me with Holly. That’s how we met.

HOLLY:

I found out later that Carré was in fact his girlfriend and not his roommate. And then I felt horrible. And it was really awkward for many years — for about 20 years.

SREELA:

It’s so funny to hear the story. Not in the moment, but you’re both laughing about it now and reflecting on it, and here you are today able to share that memory and have a completely different view of it. Sometimes relationships don’t always start off on the right foot, but then you can make it right.

HOLLY:

Definitely. Carré and I are really, really good friends now. I think we came to the conclusion that it was the man, the man was to blame in this situation. He was dishonest with both of us.

SREELA:

And yet such a beautiful friendship came out of that. It sounds like a lot of growth had happened, a lot of change, a lot of learnings, and ultimately you had more in common than different.

The relationship models we carry into adulthood

SREELA:

When you think back on what types of relationships were modeled for you both growing up, how do you feel you carried that into your adult life?

CARRÉ:

I grew up and my parents were never together. I never saw any truthful healthy relationship growing up. Ever. There was a lot of cheating and lying and abuse. So relationships from the get-go were modeled — my understanding of them — as very toxic, to say the least.

HOLLY:

Yeah. I had a similar situation. My parents were together in a very intense and passionate way, with breaking up and getting back together and then a very messy divorce. Young parents, lots of addiction in my family. I saw just a lot of like chaos and intensity, and I think I romanticized that. I thought love was just supposed to be painful and toxic and intense — I can’t live without you and then I hate you — just really no middle ground. And I definitely brought that into my adult life and into my relationships.

SREELA:

You’re both speaking to the crux of it: we learn what we are modeled. When we don’t know different or better, it teaches us to repeat those same patterns unless we choose to break them.

HOLLY:

Yeah. It took me a long time to figure out how to do it different. I just went kind of into avoiding relationships. The ones I had had been really toxic and really bad for me — like a drug. So I was like, I’m gonna be alone forever. And then it kind of made me question if love was real. Like if unconditional love was a thing, or if a healthy relationship could also be enjoyable.

CARRÉ:

I think that’s a good point where it’s not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently. Because I think your nervous system, it’s just what’s familiar. And gravitating towards that kind of chaos and intensity — it’s really intoxicating. You have to really want to do it. You may know that it would be best for you not to engage in these relationships, but it feels so familiar. It is like a drug. It’s like a hit, so you don’t really want to give that up.

“It’s not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently.”

HOLLY:

I also think there’s like an energetic thing where you attract the same kind of person in the same scenario, over and over and over again until you finally learn the lesson — the hard way. Many times.

Getting sober — from substances and from relationships

SREELA:

Holly, you are incredibly open about getting sober and then taking a break from dating. What did that break feel like for you?

HOLLY:

It was such a swing in the opposite direction. When I got sober, I realized I had to also get sober from relationships and relearn how to live. It felt like I was a monk in the Himalayas. I just kind of shut myself off from dating and sexuality. I felt like a child, actually — they do say when you get sober, you pick up from where you left off when you started using. I was probably emotionally about 12 years old. I didn’t have any of my numbing agents: the attention of men, dating, sex, drugs — anything I used to check out. I was just with myself. And that was so hard. But then it became the most empowering thing ever, because I learned how to be alone, and I relearned how to be an adult and be a person.

SREELA:

You dated yourself?

HOLLY:

I did. I dated myself for a long time.

SREELA:

Carré, around that same time, you were going through a different stage — you were already married. How did you expect marriage to be different from dating?

CARRÉ:

I always had really long relationships, at least three to five years minimum. I never really looked at what I truly wanted or needed in a relationship. I kept creating these domestic situations — and why I was so intent on settling down in some kind of traditional way, which didn’t align with anything else about my personality or my career or life. Getting married made total sense to me, but I didn’t ever question really why and where that was actually coming from. Which I had to do when I got divorced.

SREELA:

As difficult as it was, did the end of your marriage impact or reframe that perspective for you?

CARRÉ:

Yeah, definitely. It wasn’t just about relationships — it was more about me and all the things that I thought I wanted and needed up to that point. The divorce was losing everything, so it was kind of a rock bottom. But when I somewhat came out the other side of it, I really had to question what the hell I had been chasing my entire life. That’s when I realized it was a me thing. I had to examine really, like, what was I actually getting out of it.

SREELA:

Did you reach any conclusions about the why?

CARRÉ:

Yeah. It’s actually pretty simple. I had a very big hole inside of myself, from childhood trauma essentially. And I was just chasing ways to fill that hole. The intensity and the validation and the reassurance was to temporarily fill that hole in me. Just the kind of facade of safety and comfort — I really wanted and needed that to feel stable. But I never really examined, until my divorce, what that was really coming from.

Learning to date yourself first

SREELA:

When did you know it was time to start dating again?

HOLLY:

I was very intentionally celibate and alone for, I gave myself a year, and then it kept going because it was kind of weird and scary. I’d never really had any of these experiences sober. So after maybe three years, I was like, it’s time for me to start dating. I got on the apps and started putting that energy out there. But even then, I still felt really juvenile, and it took me a long time to feel comfortable as an adult sober. I had to relearn how to date from this new place of really conscious awareness — trying to be healthy, still making mistakes, and allowing that to be okay.

CARRÉ:

For me, I had always gone from one long-term relationship to another. After my divorce it was really devastating. I realized that even sex for me was not even about me, not about the actual act or my pleasure, but just a way of getting attention — performative in a way. When I really pieced together what my true intentions were — what I was seeking out in the past that wasn’t serving me — that’s when I felt more ready to meet people in a different way.

HOLLY:

I started being very conscious about making a list of what I’m looking for in a person, and then I also asked myself: am I this list? Am I the things on this list? And when I wasn’t, I was like, okay, I have to become this to call this in. Why would you expect something from someone else that you don’t have yourself?

“I had to become my list.”

Red flags, green flags, and what love actually feels like

SREELA:

How do you feel social media and dating apps have changed the dating landscape?

HOLLY:

I’ve been dating since before social media, and you used to just meet people in person — that’s definitely a preferred way. When you’re scrolling through a dating app seeing pictures with maybe a little one-liner, it’s hard to see these people as people. That’s the scariest part of dating apps for me. That said, sometimes social media gives you a window into someone that you wouldn’t have gotten in person, and that can actually be helpful.

CARRÉ:

I think social media’s the worst, to be frank. Parasocial relationships with everybody — I think it’s actually really dangerous. I would have a hard time trusting anyone who only knew what I have up on my social media, because it’s not all encompassing. I am in a very happy, healthy relationship now. And my boyfriend? Before I met him, I saw his social media page and I passed. I was like, no, this guy is not for me. Even when he popped up on a dating app, I swiped past him.

SREELA:

That goes to prove that the persona or the presentation is not always in line with your true self.

SREELA:

What are some red flags that stand out for you?

HOLLY:

Inconsistency. Somebody who’s there and then they’re not — just any kind of inconsistency is a no. Don’t even bother.

CARRÉ:

Love bombing is the one for me. Anything that goes into that immediate “I’ve never felt this way before, you’re the most amazing” — right off the bat. I got married based on a love bombing courtship and I really learned the hard way, because it was very intoxicating. After that experience, it is a huge red flag. It really scares me.

HOLLY:

Catching somebody in lies. Guys who say all their exes were crazy — if that’s true, something is wrong about you. And if a guy hates his mother, you gotta be careful.

SREELA:

Flip side of the coin — what are some of the green flags that stand out?

HOLLY:

Consistency. Somebody who does what they say they’re going to do and shows up. Someone who has friends. People who are busy but still make time for you.

CARRÉ:

People who have had friends for a long time. And for me, given what I went through personally, one of the biggest green flags was actually the slowness of the relationship I’m in now. He was very honest about, there’s really no rush here. At first it felt like a personal insult, but I realized he was emotionally mature and looking out for himself. That element of caring for himself — the pacing of our relationship — actually made me trust it a lot more.

HOLLY:

Boundaries and real self-respect. The way people treat everyone — like people in service at a restaurant. That’s really a green flag when they’re kind to everybody.

“I am in a healthy relationship now for the first time in my whole entire life. You can have passion and excitement within a relationship — within a container that’s safe.”

CARRÉ:

My relationship is definitely the healthiest, most successful. I’m happy. I’m hopefully gonna be in it for the rest of my life. However, it has not been a whirlwind. It’s not intense. It’s not dramatic. But another green flag is when somebody has boundaries around drama — they’re not willing to take the bait or play games. Every time I kind of tried to be a little push-pull, he would actually cut it down. He was like, what are you actually trying to get at right now? And honestly, it felt boring to me at first and I was like, oh, maybe this isn’t love. Because I thought love was supposed to be right — drama, intensity.

HOLLY:

That’s what they always say — it might feel boring. I am in a healthy relationship now for the first time in my whole entire life. The first couple dates I was like, does this guy even like me? Because he wasn’t love bombing me. I couldn’t tell if he was even interested in me. But I want to tell the audience: it doesn’t have to be boring. It won’t spike your adrenaline or your nervous system. But I think my relationship is not boring at all — it’s so fun because we have the best time together. You can have it all. You can have passion and excitement within a relationship, within a container that’s safe.

Why our nervous systems choose chaos

SREELA:

My conversation with Holly and Carré left me thinking about the complex and potentially challenging aspects of selecting a partner and nurturing a relationship. For those of us who witnessed unhealthy dynamics as children, it can take time to recognize those patterns and learn how to break them. And that work is often uncomfortable.

How do we move away from a toxic, yet familiar, relationship cycle toward a healthy, loving relationship?

For Holly and Carré, working on themselves has made all the difference. They have learned how to trust the green flags of a secure partner, even though it might feel different from the exciting, yet volatile, relationships.

To help me further discuss the stages of dating, I sat down with David Yadush. David is a licensed therapist with BetterHelp.

Let’s dive in.

SREELA:

David, thank you so much for being here today. This episode is about relationships, and one of the things that really came out is building a relationship with oneself when one has gone through so many different types of relationships. When we think about one’s family of origin and those experiences during a really critical developmental time, how do you think that shapes someone’s understanding of what a healthy relationship looks like?

DAVID:

We tend to associate what we see as love and as relationships as the right way to do things. As children, we learn by observing the environment around us. So if we’re seeing parents or relatives in a chaotic household, then chaotic love — chaotic relationships — feels like the norm. Love is unpredictable. Connection has those emotional highs and lows. And when that feels like the norm, that’s what we seek out.

SREELA:

We gravitate towards what we know, what’s familiar. When we as children internalize that intensity of love — like it’s supposed to be chaotic — does that influence how we choose partners?

DAVID:

Absolutely. It’s the devil you know, right? If that’s how you grow up, you’re looking for a partner that fulfills that need, that experience, that expectation. The brain really prioritizes predictability over wellbeing, over health. What is predictable, what feels like the norm, what’s expected — sometimes that feels safer than the unknown, which may be slow or unexciting.

SREELA:

One of the things that came up in the episode was this idea that healthy relationships can feel boring. There’s just such a vast difference between the highs of chaotic, intense love and a healthy, stable, quote, dull relationship. Why is it so hard to shift that mindset?

DAVID:

It’s difficult because those patterns are reinforced in relationships. When you’re in a relationship with those highs and lows — that rollercoaster of emotions — and that feels like the safe space for you, a calmer relationship feels like it’s missing something. A lot of times we’re not choosing partners — we’re choosing what our nervous systems recognize. If your system is excited in a relationship, sometimes that’s interpreted as this must be what love feels like. When caring and love and trust can be much simpler, much smaller — and that’s a lot harder to recognize.

SREELA:

We miss those subtle cues sometimes in search of that dopamine hit. There’s such a rush in a new relationship. It goes back to working in addiction — we’re chasing the high. And sometimes relationships can feel exactly like that.

DAVID:

Absolutely. It can feel like withdrawal when you’re not in that experience of love. When you’re constantly in a heightened state of emotion and that’s not there, whether you’re alone or with a different partner, you kind of feel those withdrawal symptoms. You’re missing that dopamine, that adrenaline, and your brain wants to seek it out again.

Breaking the cycle — through behavior, not just thinking

SREELA:

Why do I keep choosing the same person in a different body? How can we step back and see the pattern and shift it for ourselves?

DAVID:

The first thing I want to say is that you don’t break the cycle by thinking differently. You actually break the cycle by choosing to do differently. We can recognize toxic patterns day in and day out, but until we make the steps to change them, those patterns continue. On a very basic body-awareness level: excitement doesn’t necessarily mean safety. If your body is heightened, that might be a sign to do something differently. Don’t act on impulse right away — give yourself time to sit with it and ask, does this feel right to me?

There’s a skill in DBT called opposite action. The idea is that if you’re feeling something, your body is going to want to respond the way it knows. But when you recognize that emotion and engage in the opposite action, that can help retrain your brain to stop automatically going into those patterns — and can really help break the cycle.

SREELA:

Don’t tell me, show me. I’m not just going to think I’m going to do different — I’m going to show myself I’m going to do different. What are some ways that people can start to pinpoint where they need to change how they see themselves?

DAVID:

Where it starts is giving yourself some time to be alone. If you can connect to who you are as a person and understand your desires, goals, and values, then you can translate that into what you’re looking for in a relationship — and determine whether the relationship you’re in is meeting those values or not. I always encourage people to sit with yourself, get to know yourself. People are generally afraid to be alone. Being alone with ourselves is hard. Figuring out what I like, not in relation to someone else, can be really difficult. So I encourage everyone to practice that and really start that process.

SREELA:

I always say: date yourself. You have to be stuck with you for the rest of your life. Better get to know yourself before you let somebody else in. If I don’t know what my values are, how am I supposed to know what I’m seeking in a partner? Values shape that. Even when a person has done all that work and they still feel like they’re hitting a wall — still finding themselves in the same chaos — what would you say to them?

DAVID:

Talk to a therapist. I always encourage people — don’t wait until things are a crisis to talk to someone about it. Therapists are here and able to talk about: I’m recognizing this pattern, I can see it playing out time and time again, but I can’t seem to stop it. Being able to talk to a therapist who has these tools can make major breakthroughs — find ways to interrupt that cycle, whether it’s stopping and taking a moment to engage in an opposite action, or separating yourself from toxic relationships.

“Peace feels quiet, not empty.”

The difference between boredom and peace

SREELA:

Something that comes up often is this guilt around making decisions for yourself — this feeling of being selfish to take care of themselves, to be the cycle breaker. What are your thoughts on that?

DAVID:

Being selfish is totally acceptable and totally appropriate in certain doses. The foundation of health is self-care — mental health, physical health, relationship health. If you are doing for you the things that help you feel safe, secure, and cared for, then all of those other places can progress and move forward. We can’t pour from an empty cup.

SREELA:

That’s how people lose themselves — constantly pouring from an empty cup, forgetting to take care of yourself first. That fosters codependency. And then the unhealthy connection one has to their identity being built around everyone else becomes another barrier.

DAVID:

Absolutely. If your whole sense of self is “I give to others and that’s what makes me good and worthy and valuable as a human,” then what about all the other stuff?

SREELA:

What are some hands-on strategies for someone to get to know themselves, or to really get to know what they need in a partner?

DAVID:

Go take yourself on a date. Take yourself somewhere — maybe a movie, or out to lunch or dinner. It can be absolutely horrifying at first. This idea of sitting somewhere by myself and eating dinner can be scary. But when you do that, you’re putting yourself in a position to make decisions and engage without the influence of others. Take yourself on a hike, take yourself to a museum. We’re so trained in society to think if you want to go somewhere, you need to bring friends or a loved one. But you don’t. And that increases independence, your self-esteem, your views on yourself. You get to explore your values.

SREELA:

And even taking it a step further — dressing up for that date with yourself. Whatever makes you feel good about you. One of the homework assignments I often give people coming out of a relationship is sitting down and making a list of negotiables and non-negotiables. Go back to what felt right about your last relationship. What felt wrong. Reality test some of those things for yourself — hindsight’s 2020 — and you can really see what matters to you.

SREELA:

How do we learn the difference between boredom and peace in a relationship, especially after coming out of more chaotic ones?

DAVID:

If you are in a relationship that feels like a rollercoaster — really high highs and really low lows — and you’re in another relationship that doesn’t have that, it may feel boring. When I think of the difference between boredom and peace, I think of boredom as disengagement. Peace is more of that emotional safety. You can sit at home on the couch and feel settled, safe. You have that psychological safety — you can talk about things, bring things up. That’s peace and safety. Boredom is when you don’t have the desire to talk about things or go out and do things together, and it just doesn’t excite you. We oftentimes conflate excitement with love. What is it like when we’re just sitting on the couch next to each other? What is it like when we’re just holding hands? That’s where you can determine whether it’s peace or boredom.

“Peace feels quiet, not empty.”

DAVID:

You can sit in the quiet and find joy and feel connection. But if it feels empty when it’s quiet — if it feels like something is lacking or missing, and you don’t have that connection — I think that’s the difference between peace and boredom.

SREELA:

A listener wrote in with a question that really hit me: “If no one ever loves me enough to stay or support me, am I genuinely the problem?”

DAVID:

I have to take a moment to sit with that. It’s so heavy, and I hear it so much. People when they feel lonely feel like they’re the problem when relationships didn’t work out. But it’s not that you are the problem. There may be patterns worth understanding about what’s happening and what you’re looking for. It’s not about you being too much. It’s not about you not giving enough. It’s about the fact that you are not used to people who can give you what you need and what you deserve. And sometimes we internalize that as “I’m the problem.”

SREELA:

It’s not that you’re the problem — you just haven’t found your fit. Because of all those years of conditioning: I have to fit that mold. And you realize: I was never meant to fit that mold. Your mold exists somewhere else. Stop trying to fit that one.

DAVID:

It’s not your mold.

SREELA:

That’s not the mold for you. Exactly. And I think that’s a really empowering note to wrap things up on. David, thank you so much. I love our conversations.

CREDITS:

SREELA:

I want to give a big thank you to BetterHelp for their passion for this project, and for giving us a platform to champion the well-being in all of us. Mind If We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp, and hosted by me, Sreela Roy Greene. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review in Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and share the episode with your friends! Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life. And remember, your happiness matters.

Mind If We Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.