Mind If We Talk?: How to Deal with Loneliness and Build Meaningful Connections

Welcome to Episode 4 of Mind If We Talk?

Mind If We Talk? is an original podcast created by BetterHelp and Acast Creative Studios. Hosted by licensed therapist Haesue Jo, this 8-episode series takes a grounded, therapeutic approach to some of life’s most relatable mental health challenges. Each episode features candid, two-part conversations exploring topics like imposter syndrome, grief, procrastination, and setting boundaries. With warmth, clarity, and professional insight, Mind If We Talk? creates space for honest reflection and emotional growth. Whether you're deep into your self-growth journey or just starting out, this show offers comfort, connection, and practical tools for healing.

Episode 4: How to Deal with Loneliness and Build Meaningful Connections

What if loneliness isn't something to fix, but something to listen to?

On this episode, Haesue sits down with Case Kenny, writer and podcast host of New Mindset, Who Dis? to unpack what loneliness really teaches us when we stop running from it. He shares how he learned to reframe loneliness as a compass rather than a character flaw, the power of changing his inner dialogue from harsh judgment to gentle guidance, and why the male loneliness epidemic starts with men asking deeper questions of each other.

Haesue is then joined by Monica Jung, founder of The Oneliness Project, for a grounded conversation about loneliness as both a personal and structural challenge. From how our cities and technology create disconnection, to simple practices for moving through difficult emotions without becoming consumed by them, this episode offers compassionate guidance for anyone learning to sit with discomfort—and discovering that sometimes the path back to others starts with learning to be comfortable with yourself.

HAESUE:

Welcome back to Mind If We Talk? where you get to be a fly on the wall for many therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm your host, Haesue Jo. I'm a licensed therapist with over 10 years of experience providing individual and family therapy. This week's question: How Can I Deal with Loneliness and Build Meaningful Connections? Loneliness doesn't always look like what we expect. It can show up in the middle of a busy day, in a crowded room, or even in relationships that seem close on the surface. It's a quiet, complicated feeling and one that many people struggle to name, let alone share out loud. And it's becoming more and more common. The US Surgeon General called it an epidemic back in 2023 and the numbers back that up. We're talking about nearly a third of American adults stealing with real measurable loneliness.

And in younger generations like Gen Z and millennials, those feelings are reported even more frequently, often daily, or several times a week. For men especially, the decline in connection is striking. In 1990, just 3% of men said they had no close friendships at all. In 2021, that number had quadrupled. We also aren't leaning on each other the way we used to. In 1990, nearly half of young men said they'd call a friend first when dealing with something heavy. Today it's closer to one in five men. In a culture that's obsessed with independence and being constantly productive, actually pausing to ask yourself what you need, whether it's more connection, community or emotional support, can feel almost rebellious. Today we are diving into what loneliness actually is, how it shows up in our bodies and relationships and what it looks like to move through it with some real intention. To start. I'm sitting down with Case Kenny, writer and podcast host of New Mindset, Who Dis? In our conversation, Case opens up about the disconnection he felt as a young adult, how he's learned to embrace loneliness instead of avoiding it and what he's still learning about navigating boundaries, vulnerability, and meaningful relationships. Let's get talking.

HAESUE:

Hi Case.

CASE KENNY:

Hello. Thank you for having me.

HAESUE:

So, Case you've been forming a career all about mindfulness for the past six years, but I imagine you didn't start from that place of clarity. So I'm wondering if you could take us back to that time before everything shifted.

CASE KENNY:

In general, having felt lonely in my life really was the impetus for the development of my passion for mindfulness. Mindfulness is the salve to feeling lonely. I think in my twenties I worked a job that I really enjoyed. Frankly, I worked in advertising, technology, and sales for 10, 11, 12 years and really liked who I'd become as a person. Like sales forces you to rise to the occasion. It could really build you up or it could tear you down. And in my instance, I was kind of introverted before, and then sales made me confident and you know, I could walk into a room and pitch and lead a team and you know, I did well in my career. I started as an account executive and worked my way up to regional vice president. But it was around that time that I was on the higher end that I just felt very disconnected from myself, which I really think is what loneliness is, right?

It's an element of disconnection, whether it's from yourself, whether it's from other people, whether it's from the depth that you crave in relationships or in passion. And I was frustrated by the fact, I was like, well, why am I like succeeding on paper? Why am I doing all the right things? But I don't feel connected to the work and by extension to myself and to the people that I worked with.

At a certain point it was transactional and so expected, and it frustrated me because I felt like the cause of that disconnect was I didn't have a strong sense of self. And so the solution was I started reconnecting to myself, specifically in the way that I speak to myself. That was what I think really helped me in the sense of, you know, feeling lonely and seeing loneliness as a sign to do something, as opposed to a reflection of who I am.

HAESUE:

So it's something about the belief of self and you kind of already started talking about this, but would love to hear more about how the beliefs about yourself have changed as you've been navigating through this journey of loneliness.

CASE KENNY:

Yeah, so I realized loneliness as the feeling is part of the human condition. And it's not necessarily my job to rise above it. It's my job to listen to it. Because anytime I've felt lonely and then listened to it, I've reconnected with myself or I've connected to a newer, better version of myself. So it's really been helpful in that sense as like seeing loneliness as a sign as opposed to like a fault. 

But I would say the biggest thing that's changed for me is how I speak to myself. And it's funny because this has come full circle like seven years later.

I used to speak to myself very much in the tone of an opinion. Case, you are falling behind, Case you are unworthy, like opinions as facts to myself. The way that I speak to myself now is more in the, in the context of advice.

Like Case, have you considered that maybe this isn't the right person for you? Case, what do we think this means? What could we do to feel closer to someone else? To feel closer to yourself? So it's more of a respect for myself, a guidance of myself as opposed to just shame and judgment of myself.

HAESUE:

I'd love to hear about a specific moment in your life where you realize that this loneliness, this forest term that you're referencing is actually something else.

CASE KENNY:

Yeah, in 2018 when I decided to start the podcast, I remember one of my coworkers was like, “Oh, it's very sensitive of you, Case.” I remember at the time I heard that and I was like, well that is the cause of my loneliness or my disconnect because I'm so sensitive and I don't feel connected. That is the cause. And it was like something that I would kind of dismiss. I was like, oh, I'm just goofing around, like, don't really pay attention to me. Even though deep down I was like, this is important to me, but I would dismiss it because I didn't wanna be judged. Classic. Sure, my emotional awareness was the reason I felt disconnected, but it was also the way for me to feel connected. And if I only saw it as the cause and not the step forward, I would've completely dismissed it.

So I'm really glad, frankly, of myself that I didn't, you know, so often we see loneliness as like the thing that we need to avoid. We need to escape as fast as we can. But I, I've really seen it as a sign of strength because some people feel lonely and they fill that space as fast as they can with things and stuff, and people in an attempt to not feel lonely. And when you're in that scarcity, fear-driven mindset, you often fill your life with the wrong things. And I'm really proud that I was, you know, patient enough to sit in that space and try to fill it with the right things. I still look at it as sensitivity, vulnerability, honesty, like, yeah, those are the things that make you feel lonely. And loneliness is not a comfortable feeling, but it's ultimately the thing that will fill your life with the right people and the right experiences and the right job. So it's our job to listen to it. So really a big reversal for me from seeing it as something to escape then to something to lean into.

HAESUE:

I can put myself in the shoes of somebody that's like starting some kind of self discovery journey and looking at you, listening to you and feeling like, oh, that's where I wanna be. That's kind of like a prototype of where I'm gonna be on the other side of this a little bit, especially as a public figure, people are hearing a really nice version of your perspective, your thoughts, insight. I'm curious, Case Kenny, that's not on camera, that's not being recorded, does he ever experience loneliness still? And depending on what that answer is, why or why not?

CASE KENNY:

The answer is of course, I think for me, I feel lonely in the instances where I feel a negative emotion, which is normal, but I see it as a sign that I'm doing the wrong thing. I feel that sense of loneliness creeping up. Because then it means, well I'm, I'm falling behind and you know, people aren't gonna appreciate me. You know, feeling anxious and feeling like I'm an imposter. Have I chosen the wrong thing? Oh my gosh, did I quit my career to share my feelings for a living? Perhaps feeling that means I'm on the right track. Perhaps feeling that means that I'm paying the price for the thing that I want to have and that's something I'm still working on, right? I'm very judgmental of myself. Like many people, I suppose that when I feel an emotion, I'm like, oh, well it's a negative emotion.

Negative means wrong, therefore I'm pointing in the wrong direction. As opposed to I feel the emotion. Yes, it's a negative one. Let me sit in this for a little bit. Perhaps this is a sign that the thing that I want is on the other side of it. Culturally, sometimes I have found myself attached to words because they're in vogue and popular: anxious, depressed, lonely, embarrassed. These things where, sure, maybe that is the right word, but like, let me support it with my own firsthand language. And more often than not, when I've actually sat in that space and I've been like, is this the right word? It's usually not. It's usually something way more specific. My gut reaction to certain things are words that I'm largely borrowing from other people.

HAESUE:

So I'm taking a sidebar for people to kinda pick out some of the stuff that case was saying that can be very helpful for you. Um, there's something that comes outta DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy to help people with regulating their emotions. And it's as simple as thinking of the acronym STOP. You're stopping, you're taking a breath to calm the central nervous system. And you're observing. This is something that Case has been describing very well here. You're observing your feelings, you're observing potential triggers to why you got to this place. You're observing how this person's making you feel, what is it that I'm saying or doing that might make them feel some type of way. And before we move on to the next step, which is to move on with your life and to proceed mindfully, we're really taking stock of so many different angles and perspectives of what the situation is, what this dialogue was, what is it that I'm potentially missing, what can I add into my life to feel a little bit more fulfilled, a little bit healthier?

HAESUE:

So I appreciate you talking about these things, having compassion for your own thoughts and your feelings. And I want people to know, people still feel these things. People that are recognized as being experts, gurus in some particular topic. It's not that people have figured out how to make these feelings go away. You have and continue to figure out how to manage these things in a way that makes sense for you and make them work for you instead of you working for your feelings. As a public figure, would love to hear who in your life has helped you feel the most known? Not just liked or admired, um, but understood.

CASE KENNY:

I would say a couple things. I'm 37 now. I think I've really realized the power of quality and depth of friendships for one. Like I have five or six close friends, guys who really support the mission but also live it. We have a group chat where like a couple of guys will send through photos of their literal journal entries. And not like in a cheesy way, but just being like,” hey, I thought this was cool.” I find that kind of stuff really is invigorating, especially in the era of like male loneliness. Um, and then I would also say, you know, my girlfriend who I live with, she's a DJ here, so we have the creative push and pull, which is so powerful. But also our life is just defined by playfulness, which I think is such a powerful quality in a relationship. It just makes life feel lighter. And when life is lighter, I feel more vulnerable. And, you know, intuitive when it comes to writing. Context and environment is everything. Like if you're in a chaotic environment and you're trying to connect with yourself, it's very difficult.

Of course, I'm, I'm very lucky to have an environment here where it's light and it's honest and it's vulnerable. It's defined by weirdness and playfulness and to me that's really, really important.

HAESUE:

That's a great answer, because you hit on so many things that I think a lot of therapists are trying to get their clients to in terms of how to feel aligned and fulfilled. And you're talking about friends, good friends, that's a whole other conversation. Multiple conversations on how to make friends, put yourself out there and maintain long lasting, intimate relationships with people that aren't your partner. You're talking about love, partnership, playfulness, fun, having fun in life. That's all these things are speaking my language. I was smiling a lot while you're speaking too, because I didn't know this, but you and I are the same age. And I was thinking of this quote, “There are many paths to the top of Mount Fuji, but there's only one summit. Love.”

CASE KENNY:

Beautiful. To the loneliness topic, I like the analogy that I came up with a while ago for myself that isn't terribly original, because there's a whole song about a life as a highway, right? When I know myself and I know that there's certain people I connect with and there's certain people I don't, there's certain contexts where I thrive and there's certain contexts where I feel terribly alone and anxious, but I've figured out the difference. I then think of life like a highway in the sense that you know, that there's always an exit eventually. And that exit to me represents connection, represents change, represents something positive. And because I have that ability to sit in resistance and negative emotions, the stretches between the exits, I know that eventually I'll get to that exit. So then it's just my job in the metaphorical sense to put the windows down, turn the radio on and just enjoy that stretch of highway the best that I can. But in terms of imagery, I've always found that to be rewarding because things can change.

HAESUE:

Well thank you. Because now that song's gonna be stuck in my head all week. Yeah, my bad. very catchy. I love this analogy. I've never heard this before, which is funny because it is a song like you say, but even when you're talking about there's always gonna be an exit, we know that it's coming even if you missed one in the past particularly. But the highway also, once you get off, you can't find the entrance again. If you need to get back on to do some loopty-loops and you get back and you can just keep turning around and all that stuff. So thank you for sharing that. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna shift gears a little bit, but when did you first start to notice a difference between being alone and being lonely?

CASE KENNY:

When I first started doing a lot of this work, you know, I sought out a lot of other people to find their perspective to fuel mine. I was a big fan of asking older people like, you know, 60 plus about their lives. And I never heard anyone say I regret being single for like too long. That was never in the realm of regrets. And I just thought that was really interesting and that was like an early piece of perspective that really fueled my life. And I was like single at the time and it was really validating, it really empowered me to be like, all right, well then stay this way and learn about yourself and, and see this time as a time for growth and knowing yourself. And you can decide if it's loneliness, you can decide if it's just empowering solitude. There was a study I read that showed the power of framing when it comes to being isolated.

They had these two groups of college students, but they had two different groups. The first group, they said, “hey, you're gonna go into this room, you're gonna be isolated, perform this task and then we're gonna ask you some questions.” In the second group, they said, “hey, you're gonna go into this room, you're gonna have some me time, you're gonna do the task and then we're gonna ask you some questions.” So they were priming them on isolation versus “me-time” and you can see where I'm going with it. Overwhelmingly, the group that was told “me- time” cognitively, emotionally, showed such a lift in positivity as opposed to the group that told that they were isolated. They did the same thing. It was the same exact context. It was all about what they were told to emotionally prime themselves for.

HAESUE:

Love that power of language folks. I saw something online several years ago if, and, and I kind of think about it all the time in my own language, basically it's like

if you notice yourself and catch yourself wanting to say sorry for something, apologizing for taking up space or time with somebody, try to flip it into a thank you statement. Yeah, thank you for waiting for me versus, sorry I'm late In that way. It shifts the way we speak to ourselves.

Because in essence, we are speaking to ourselves in a way when we do that. So what, if anything, about loneliness still mystifies you? Is there anything that you're still trying to understand about loneliness?

CASE KENNY:

You know, we live in a time where we're told to have strong boundaries and big standards, which I'm a huge fan of, right? I am still learning the right balance there because when you have too strong of boundaries, you push people out and you feel more lonely. When you have, you know, I would never say too high of standards 'cause that's not the right wording, but when you have these things that push people out or pull you away because of some perceived balance or expectation meeting, we can cause ourselves to feel more lonely. To me, the thing that I'm still figuring out is like, how do those two things coexist? Your willingness to lean into vulnerable connections, but also the need for strong boundaries and strong standards, and how do we actually make those work together? The thing that I lean towards, which I'm sure you do as well, is like, a boundary isn't about keeping people out.

It's about putting yourselves in situations where you could connect with people or places or context, but removing yourself once you realize it's not right for you. But it's about a willingness to put yourself in that position at first to see if a connection could spark from an unfamiliar, unknown person. And it's that willingness to step in there as opposed to not allowing yourself to step in because you have that too high a boundary. But that's something I'm, I'm still working through, whether that's respecting my time or connecting with someone who's not my typical type of friend or whatever it may be. Willingness to explore and then react as opposed to react first judge, first boundary first.

HAESUE:

I would love to hear about a specific example where this came to life.

CASE KENNY:

I think the honest answer is I still find myself sometimes jumping at little pieces of validation. Because they're validation. And then I get there and I'm like, oh, this is not right now. It's like, now I'm lonely, surrounded by people or lonely or disconnected, surrounded by opportunity. And then I have to back my way out. I, you know, want to be validated, I want to be seen, I want to be appreciated. And I jump at it, only to realize, well, this is not the people or the group or that I want to be seen or appreciated by. And then I've gotta back my way out. So if anything, the answer that I'm learning is the power of checking your gut response and not just letting that choose the action for you. I'm a pretty impatient person and I think sometimes being impatient is good. I do, but more often than not, it's not so great. So I think I'm really learning the power of pause, the power of stepping back.

HAESUE:

You have learned much in your journey in your life. If you could go back and talk to a younger version of yourself, what would you want this younger version of Case Kenny to hear?

CASE KENNY:

You know, I think I spent a lot of my twenties like many people do, chasing the things that were expected: timing, people, jobs. Because to me that was presented as the right thing to do. And then when I found that it wasn't the right thing for me, that's when I felt lonely.

And I think if I would've had the understanding that one person's right doesn't necessarily mean my right way, that would've really freed me up to see that emotion as a guiding thing. So the thing that I say is that there's no right way to live your life, but there's a wrong way. And the wrong way is to think that there's a right way, right?

Just the idea that, you know, if we're always thinking that there's some universal truth and right way and right timing and right relationship and right job and right definition of success. And we're always just trying to emulate and find that and copy that we're gonna set ourselves up to feel disconnected. Because inevitably it's not gonna be right for us because we're never the same as other people. And that's such a gift.

HAESUE:

Yeah. Because I'm hearing that 25-year-old Case, and even sometimes 37-year-old Case because he's human. It's great to be reminded of this. But this  25-year-old Case, I'm hearing maybe struggled with, you know, seeking out validation or chasing something based on a gut reaction, potentially putting up walls too easily.

CASE KENNY:

I, it's tough 'cause I mean, we're all like, we are primed emotionally, psychologically to look for signs of, of right and wrong. The hallmark sign of compassion for yourself and kindness for yourself is to allow yourself to sit in uncertainty and not label it. And I wish I would've been better at that. And I think if, you know, I had found a way to be a little bit more kind amidst that I would've felt a little bit lighter. And perhaps with lighter, you, you, you notice things and you're more perceptive to things. I think sometimes too, like ego causes loneliness. Like being like, well, you know, I deserve more. Which is great. Yes, you do. But like, don't let that get in the way of softening yourself to be open to what that looks like.

HAESUE:

Humility, softness, gentle compassion, nurturing. These are not things I typically think of as 25-year-old men providing to themselves.

CASE KENNY:

I mentioned earlier the male loneliness epidemic just because you, you said men there and I think about myself and I'm sure there's many, many reasons why this has bubbled up in 2025, but I also think a lot about the way that men ask questions or don't ask questions. Like I have found that, you know, now it's the trope where it's like a guy hangs out with his friend. The guy says, “Hey, you know, Jessica and I broke up” and then, uh, the other guy goes back to his girlfriend and says, "Yeah, he broke up with, uh, Jessica.” And she goes, “why?” And he goes, “well, I don't know. I didn't ask.” Why don't men ask deeper questions of each other? Like, I do think about that and you know, along the topic of loneliness and knowing yourself and perhaps masculinity as a whole, it's like digging deeper and being willing to have those vulnerable conversations is very, very, very important. I think there's a lot in, in pausing, you know, writing down feelings, especially for like men who maybe are averse to some of these things. Therapy feelings, sharing, start writing things down and see, uh, how relatable it is. Because when we live in our head, sometimes it just becomes this esoteric mess of, of words and feelings. Write it down, make it practical, touch it, feel it, see that it's a real thing. Something you can define. It's something you can react to.

HAESUE:

Well, thank you so much Case for your energy, your wisdom, your time. I hope that we can cross paths again.

CASE KENNY:

Me too. Thanks for having me.

HAESUE:
That conversation with Case left me thinking about how loneliness pushed him to listen more closely to his inner voice, to speak to himself with more compassion and to stop chasing connection just for the sake of feeling seen. Getting to that place took courage. He had to step into discomfort and stay there with curiosity. He had to face what was really driving that disconnection he felt from himself and his job. That kind of growth doesn't come from fixing loneliness. It comes from sitting with it, listening to it, asking what is this feeling trying to show me? 

HAESUE:

To explore the idea more deeply. I spoke with Monika Jiang, founder of the Oneliness Project, an effort to reframe loneliness, not as weakness, but as a signal to turn inward and reach out. She cultivates community spaces that center her deep inquiry, connection and care. Together, we looked back at Case’s reflections and talked through what loneliness might really be asking of us. For more honesty and perhaps a different kind of connection than we've been taught to seek. Let's get into it. Hi Monika. 

MONIKA JIANG:

Hey!

HAESUE:

Thanks so much for taking the time to come speak with me. To start us off, would love to hear more about you and then we'll dive right in.

MONIKA JIANG:

Yes, happy to share. Thank you. I was born in Germany to Chinese immigrant parents, which, uh, is a little history in its own, on a strange connection between Germany and China in my family in particular. Anyway, I grew up in a small German town and then eventually moved to Berlin where I still live. My background is actually in communications and media and then led me to exploring the future of work, which then brought me to the House of Beautiful Business where I spent my last five years. It was sort of a significant chapter of my career and being in touch with a lot of people there and becoming the “community person,” quote unquote by chance really. And being in touch with a lot of people and listening to them and sensing that they were longing for a different kind of connection and community, um, made me really curious on where that desire is coming from, which eventually led me to exploring loneliness and loneliness, not just as a personal, but also as a collective systemic and structural issue as an experience that we all know as human beings and yet is one that is often misunderstood.

And that's where the Oneliness Project emerged.

HAESUE:

Thank you so much. Side note, I also have a connection to Germany. My grandfather was a German professor, as random as I have found that, but very cool as also an Asian person having been born in a diasporic kind of situation. I'm really eager to get to hear some of your perspective insight. And we're here to talk about loneliness. I'm a practicing therapist, so in my practice, loneliness comes up quite a bit. I wanna say it's one of the most common co-occurring things. And I say “thing” because it's not necessarily a disorder. There's no criteria to meet to say that somebody is experiencing this. And I think it's something that we've all experienced at some point or another. And you are someone who has thought a lot about loneliness in your life and work. So I'd love to hear how you define loneliness.

MONIKA JIANG:

Yeah, as I go forward and, you know, am in touch with people and bring up this topic into spaces in order to explore together, I'm learning more and more how many different, uh, nuances loneliness can have. It's something uniquely personal, it's so intimate, um, and only you can, tell if, you know, if that feeling is loneliness, what you're feeling or, or something else. It's very, very personal and subjective. And to me, I think I've felt lonely in some way or other, um, my whole life not as a constant, but it came in a romantic relationship. But then most early on in my childhood of growing up was a very lonely experience as the only, or one of the very, very, very few Asian people in our community, in our town. So that was a very isolating and lonely experience.

Not because I didn't have friends or people around me, but more so because I felt like an alien and I felt so estranged and I just wanted to be like everybody else, not just from how I looked, but also culturally.

So you can feel that and you can sense it as a child. You just cannot really make sense of what it really is. So I thinkloneliness to me is that feeling, um, not being fully seen or heard, and therefore not perhaps feeling accepted, but also it has like this sense of feeling alienated or estranged, not included fully. I think it has different nuances. And then also there is that loneliness when you are actually alone, right? Physically alone, somewhere where you just feel like you're by yourself, you're kind of cut off and everybody seems to be in happy relationships, but you're there on your own and you feel unsupported. You feel like the odd one out. So loneliness comes in all different kinds of shapes.

HAESUE:

You mentioned something about wishing or wanting to be like everybody else, and I can understand that because that desire to me is indicative of “if I'm like them, then they would understand me more. If I'm like them, then they would see me.” So I'm wondering, in your work, in your experiences, have you observed or is this something that comes up for you? People perhaps struggling with maintaining personal boundaries that would protect their peace and their time and their sense of self in order to attempt to be accepted by a larger group of people?

MONIKA JIANG:

A lot. And I think what the conundrum is, uh, these days is that there are so many examples of how to live your life in this way or in that way because social media tells us this one thing and you know, movies and culture and we have sort of this idea of what a “successful good life” is. And in a way there's so many options or so many ways that that is being constantly displayed to you. What I'm seeing and hearing from people that almost makes it impossible for you to kind of know what it is that I actually want, you know? Do I even have the space for me to say like, yes, even though that life is being portrayed to me as something ideal and optimum for me, maybe that is not true. Maybe I'm seeking something else, but what is that?

What are my real needs or desires? Right? What is it that I want if everything around me seems to already have kind of a perfectly ready-made image of what it should be? So I think there seems to be a weird paradox that we have a lot of freedom in our choices. And at the same time that brings also the challenge of, well, what is then true to you and how do you want to be? And is that coherent with whom you want to be accepted by? And are these really the people that you want to be accepted by and why? And is that your community or where does that, you know, go? So I think it's quite complex these days.

HAESUE:

It sounds like it could be a little bit murky to determine whether a connection in front of you is based on, um, you know, both people showing up with mutual authenticity. So I'm, I'm curious to hear from you, what are some signs that a connection is perhaps being driven more by validation seeking rather than this mutual authenticity?

MONIKA JIANG:

That's really a tricky one because for us to be able to live authentically and through our own, you know, ways we have to kind of be still in relationship with others, it's kind of both your sense of self and how you view the world, but you cannot do that uninfluenced by others and relationships.

But I think what some signs are where you're kind of starting to lose yourself on the edges is perhaps when the other right becomes too, um, in their needs or in whatever they do, becomes too dominant in how you then perceive yourself.

Right? If you are sort of only occupied to please the other person to be there, if that anxiety or overwhelm starts to happen, probably then you're starting to lose your own footing.

HAESUE:

So the earlier conversation I had had with Case, he had mentioned that he started reframing the way that he saw and experienced loneliness. He started wanting to see it as a sign to do something as opposed to seeing it as a reflection of who he is. And so often we do see loneliness as something to avoid. This is something that Case had brought up. Okay. So I hear some agreement from you there. I would just love to hear some thoughts there.

MONIKA JIANG:

Absolutely. I mean, loneliness is a very uncomfortable feeling in itself. It's very consuming. It is culturally in most cultures as stigmatized, right? It's kind of a shameful experience, because I think largely our cultures in the way that we perceive loneliness and the way that we stigmatize it is that loneliness is a flaw, but like a personal flaw. It's kind of that notion of implying that you ought to fix it, it's your problem. Why don't you, you know, go out and make more friends or like different kinds of friends or like you should do more so as not to be lonely anymore. And I think that's inherently wrong because loneliness is part of the human experience and it's not anyone's fault to feel an emotion that is human. And that also in itself, like hunger or thirst gives us a signal to say like, okay, what is it that I'm missing, perhaps? What is it that I'm longing for? What is not here that I would like to have here? Is it a different kind of relationship? Is it more of a connection to myself? Actually often it's that, it's not even always social connections that we're missing, but like that true connection to ourselves, which goes back to authenticity, and knowing what you actually want and feel and need rather than someone else.

Or is it a connection to something larger? I think loneliness is both a personal experience, but also it has reasons for why it is so prevalent right now for a lot of people. And those reasons are more structural and systemic and have something to do with how we design our cities, right? How we've, uh, created our worlds really. And that is a big part of why people are feeling lonely and why I think embracing it and accepting it rather than avoiding it or putting, you know, a label on it, uh, and pretending it doesn't exist or it just exists for a few people in that corner isn't reallyhelpful.

HAESUE:

You mentioned that there are some specific reasons why loneliness may feel quite pervasive today. You kinda alluded to structural systems, the way that we've planned our cities, technology. Can you give specific examples of what some of these reasons are? .

MONIKA JIANG:

For example, we've designed cities more and more for cars and convenience, rather than to be walkable, to be public spaces. Like there's this popular term “Third Places”, uh, that was coined by Ray Oldenberg in the seventies, which speaks to a place where we meet each other right? In our neighborhoods where we actually, uh, meet each other, but then also other people are just passing by and we can hang out. And there is sort of this idea of accessibility. So you don't have to pay money in order to hang out there. It's not the modern coffee shop where you have to get a $7 or Euro matcha latte order to hang out there for maybe two hours or something, right? It's the idea of a publicly accessible space, uh, where also different kinds of social class come together, where it doesn't mean that we are all friends, it just means that we are aware of other people who are in our lives, in our community, in our worlds, that we're living more together rather than apart.

Housing is another one, right? Like when did we decide that living on our own and I live by myself as well, uh, in an apartment is sort of the goal. You know, like before we used to share more, like we used to live more in a communal way. And again, that doesn't mean that everything has always been happy or everything is always a burden, but there is some sense of connection that was fostered in a life, uh, that was lived much more, uh, with one another for good and for bad, rather than everybody kind of becoming much more atomized and living a much more isolated life in the cities. And technology is another big one, of course, where I think through social media and now AI is a completely different ball game, but with social media connection has become something very flat and very reduced.

HAESUE:

Thank you for those examples. I think we've kind of touched on without getting explicit about the importance of sitting with loneliness, which is akin to sitting with discomfort, sitting with pain. When can it become potentially harmful or when can sitting with loneliness maybe start turning into self-isolating?

MONIKA JIANG:

A very important question. If you notice that you are having the tendency to isolate yourself and not seeing people anymore, or not going out, like actually being in the real world. And again, that is where technology is just so pervasive and so dangerous to keep people in this illusion that you can get everything from, you know, your computer or your phone, but it's not real. So I think that's for sure like a big signal for not doing that or, or seeking out help or support that is outside of that room. Because it will just make it worse, of course, if you just sit with it and sit with it alone and sort of become more and more detached from everything that is real and that is physical.

HAESUE:

Case talked about the importance of writing his feelings down as a way for him to understand these feelings better. There's actually research based in neuroscience talking about externalizing feelings, naming them to help yourself feel some relief from it too. And so he had mentioned he would rather write it down than live with these feelings just in his head. So why, in your opinion, do emotions gain so much power when we let them marinate in our head?

MONIKA JIANG:

I observed that with myself as well. I'm really good at feeling something and then becoming the emotion.

It still happens sometimes, right? That I become so taken over by this feeling and then it becomes almost like an apathy or something that just feels so heavy or so much that I'm like, what? Oh, I don't know now what, what to do or what to say or like, how to move through this. And then comes the overthinking and we get stuck in our heads, literally. Right? So I understand that point of getting it out in some ways. And what I was thinking when you were saying sort of sitting with loneliness or difficult emotions, um, I like this idea of moving with it and moving through it. To me, when I think of emotions, I think immediately of the body, right?

And how our body stores and lives through those emotions, like emotions in the body are, are very much connected. So to move literally and physically, whatever that looks like, right? Movement, it can be just walking, it can be sports for some people, it can be just going outside, whatever the practice might be.

I think that is always a way to kind of move with and through the emotion without having to expect that there is gonna be a way, but at least your body is, you know, you have an invitation to process it a little bit. So it doesn't always need to be like a very quiet way on, on how we then embrace those experiences.

HAESUE:

Any tips on how we can soothe ourselves in the moments when negative voices or these kinds of feelings are just too loud?

MONIKA JIANG:

I think reminding ourselves, even if in that moment it's difficult, but reminding ourselves that we're not alone in that, reminding ourselves that this will pass, right, this moment will pass. We will not forever feel like this even again, if it feels like that in the moment. And, and that is valid at the same time, like it's going to pass, right? And to be kind and compassionate with yourself, especially in those moments, rather than having sort of negative self-talk of like you should be and why you all of that come up turning to something that soothes you as in gives you joy, right? 

For some people it's like humming and singing, for others it is like moving and doing something physical or, or sports. For others it's going outside and, and connecting with nature. I think that's, uh, a universal one. It's like if you stand with a tree or in a forest or a river or you're lucky to have the ocean nearby. Like just to be closer to nature and feel that, you know, there is life all around us. It helps a little bit to zoom out of your current very acute feeling, and sort of this very, um, narrow view on yourself and the world. It helps to widen that a little bit.

HAESUE:

Thank you for those tips. The word that's coming up for me is actual spirituality. What I'm hearing is one can go out and connect with something bigger than yourself outside of yourself to ultimately connect with the truth of who you are, which is how I see what spirituality is. You can't, you know, expect to enjoy your own company if you don't know who you are. So it sounds like part of the journey to sit with and learn from loneliness is to enjoy your own company. And I love the tips that you gave because these are practices to get people closer to that space, to enjoy your own company, to feel good about who that person is, because ultimately that is the energy we emanate to other people, and that's what draws other people to connect with us. How can someone begin to cultivate more emotionally rich relationships, even if they feel like they don't currently have them?

MONIKA JIANG:

The question of who's currently in my life, right? Like, what are the relationships that I have right now? Like the closest, most inner circles like family and close friends or partner, whatever it might be for you. Also your pets, right? You can have relationships to pets, very important. And then who's on the wider circle around and like different kinds of communities do that exercise basically of these, maybe it's three circles, right, of the inner circle and then middle and then some somewhere like outer, more like acquaintances and like people that you see once in a while. But, and just see what is missing, who is missing in terms of the quality of relationships, which might mean to reduce as in to, you don't have to necessarily break up with your friends, but also be honest to yourself how much social energy you have. Like you cannot be friends with a hundred people all the time.

And then also want different and meaningful relationships, right? So it might mean to be honest with how much capacity do I have? What do I enjoy doing? And then it has to be a little bit of a balancing act of reducing some activities or parting ways in, in some way, or hanging out less and then, and then making space for new ones or addressing it. I think that's also something that we don't really do in our friendships, for example. More so maybe in romantic relationships. Also not always to say, you know, what are you longing for? Or what is something that you need, right? Or I have this dream of doing this trip together or whatever. See where the other person is and perhaps it might surprise you that they might also enjoy having a little bit more time spent or differently in order to give room for more depth emotionally as well.

HAESUE:

There is definitely a theme that I have observed in the clients that I work with. It's come up here and there that as we get older in general, we become a bit more discerning with how we spend our time, where we put our energy into, and very much this is applicable to friendship relationships. I like what you said about it's not necessarily about having a hundred friends, in fact with a hundred friends. How likely is it that you have the energy, the time, in some cases the money to cultivate meaningful experiences with these people that can turn into meaningful connections? As we're wrapping up here, I just wanted to see if there's any other final thoughts that you might want to impart on our listeners here when it comes to loneliness, cultivating connection.

MONIKA JIANG:

Yeah, I would love to encourage anyone who's listening, perhaps to spark that conversation of loneliness. Just bring it up on the next conversation you might have, whether it's with a friend or like across a table in a, in a different kind of setting, just to see what that does. And you can refer to me or to this podcast, you know, be like, I'm just curious, you know, what does that bring up? You know, is there a sense of loneliness for me? Because my experience has been that it's the most beautiful conversations that can happen when someone dares to open and say, yes, sometimes I feel lonely actually right now because this and that happened or whatever, right? And sometimes I wish I could talk more about this particular topic or that particular challenge in my life with someone. And that vulnerability always opens a different depth, uh, of connection and relationship. So perhaps take this as a little invitation to spark something in your lives, in your worlds.

HAESUE:

Thank you so much, Monika, for your time today and for sharing your wisdom with us.

MONIKA JIANG:

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

HAESUE:

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What a topic we covered today. It was so interesting to hear Case's point of view on loneliness, ranging from being a 25-year-old man seeking validation to his thoughts on being disconnected from himself. Loneliness is a problem many people face right now, and I'd like to remind you to reach out and talk to people in your life or to a therapist. Therapy's a great way to feel supported and to be guided back to yourself when you're feeling disconnected or lonely. Visit betterhelp.com/mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month. 

I wanna give a big thank you to better help for their passion behind this project and for giving us a platform to champion the wellbeing in all of us. Mind If We Talk? is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with BetterHelp and hosted by me, Haesue Jo. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and share with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life. And remember, your happiness matters. Mind If We Talk? is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.